Posts by jonathan dough

51

Our "Bible Study" with the Jehovah's Witnesses

by garyneal in

my wife and i had a "bible study" with an elder and his wife yesterday (9-11-09) and the topic was marraige.

the book we covered was "keeping yourself in god's love.

" this particular "bible study" was based primarily on the topic we covered in the book and, of course, there was a lot of "hop scotching" of the bible.

jonathan dough

Gary neal: I know one of their beliefs is that only the 144,000 are going to heaven. I totally disagree with this teaching. I just don't see where the Bible says that this is the case. But even if they can show to me in the Bible where they think this is the case, has anyone ever considered the fallacies of this teaching?

I wrote a detailed paper debunking this myth that only 144,000 go to heaven. This is by far one of their weakest arguments. You can find it here:

http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html

JD II

8

Who owns the Watch Tower Society & the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society

by God_Delusion in

it never dawned on me until now.

who is the legal representative of both the above parties?

also, can someone post the definitions of what both organisations do?.

jonathan dough

Thanks. From what I can tell it would then be the state who would control the assets. Depending on the state. I'm not sure about that and you're right, I would have to research that more.

The related question was regarding the potential transfer to non-US corporate or other legal entities. Could they be transferred to non-US entities (WBTS profit or non-profit) prior to dissolution? I'm imagining ways in which the WTS could circumvent US non-profit laws. Non-profits conveying US interests to a for-profit Uganandan WTBTS legal entity.

8

Who owns the Watch Tower Society & the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society

by God_Delusion in

it never dawned on me until now.

who is the legal representative of both the above parties?

also, can someone post the definitions of what both organisations do?.

jonathan dough

every corporation associated with the group would have to be dissolved, otherwise the assets, transfer to another corporation in the group. The WTS is governed by the laws for non-profit corporations set up by the IRS in the US. Even if all were dissolved, the law does not allow the assets to be "owned" by an individual or group of individuals.

So who would own or control the assets if all were dissolved? Could they be transferred to non-US corporate entities? Could they be transferred to non-US entities (profit or non-profit) prior to dissolution?

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

ATJ: Jonathan, I have read what you have written, and in my opinion, you don't know what you are talking about.

You have an opinion that goes basically: 'Jesus is part of the trinity, and I believe that the trinity accurately describes god.'

The problem is that you are presenting your opinion as an indisputable fact.

If you took the time to read the information I provided you would soon learn that it is not just my opinion but that of the Catholic and Protestant churches and countless theologians. I'm not here out on a limb. And I question how you can say I don't kow what I am talking about since you haven't read the many resources I have cited let alone address any of the issues. And if you have, then why don't you address specific instances and prove us wrong, without going off topic. But let's keep it focused.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

ypo: Because you have treated my responses like that of a debate I don't care to post the quotes but rather let you discover them in private as not to cause public embarassment over you aggressive posting in the last 24 hours on a topic that you appear to be lacking a full understanding.....

Don't worry about embarassing me. Post your quotes for everyone to see. Don't hide behind 'private' communication. If I'm wrong, please prove it and I will gladly recant. But as of right now you have yet to proffer one single piece of contradictory evidence. And yes, this is a debate. Most of the discussions here are debates. I've done my homework and now it is your turn. But do me a favor. Read what I have written first and don't assume I don't know what I am talking about.

http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

ynot: As far a producing litertrash I already directed you to the Reasoning book as regards to the presentation of co-equal/co-eternal. It is covered under the topic of Trinity......I assumed that your authoritarian slant meant you have had access to such information in the past.....

Pointing me to the Reasoning book isn't going to get you out of this. You can't produce a single excerpt to back up your claim. I'm very familiar with the Reasoning Book. Too familiar. And it is obvious you haven't read a word I wrote. That is your choice, but stop being such a self-righteous, sanctimonious JW know it all. Because you don't. Call me all the names you want to. That is fine.

ynot: cough, cough bullsh*t........ YOU SIR ARE BEING A HORSESASS! Get over yourself you are no different in you self-righteousness of another well known "ASS" within the Organization.

You call this non-aggressive polite discourse? A humble discussion? Come now, hypocracy does not become you.

115

Angel Eye needs an education on the identity and nature of Christ

by jonathan dough in

angel eye wrote:.

john 14 v 1 shows jesus and jehovah are not 1.. acts 2 v 4 and 17 clearly show the holy spirit isnt a person,its gods active force.. john 14 v 28 is total proof,otherwise jesus would clearly be insane saying such things .

toomany scriptures to prove it...but just a few for you to recall,i guess its hard when your reading false claims to remember the truth.. .

jonathan dough

I agree JD , but when I was a dub debating the Trinity with Fundy B/A 's on the door for hours at a time , no one ever really won, the Dubs walk away thinking they've won, and same with the B/A and probably same with AE/Renaii, if there was a scripture the said" The Father , Son.and Holy Ghost are part of a divine trinity " they still wouldn't believe you, I admire your work , but feel it could be channelled on someone more deserving and appreciative.

Thanks or the complement, but there are literally hundreds, possibly thousands out there who want to know more, some want out, but they can't because they are mentally boxed in by the Society's lawyers and arguments. And it is those people looking over our shoulders I'm also trying to reach, not just the posters. The remnant lurk for a reason. They just need answers and responses to the Insight Book, Reasoning book etc.. They need valid answers to combat the Society's answers. How many are there? Who knows? Even one would make it worthwhile. I don't think anyone can paint such a broad generalizaiton of an organization of that size. These posts are being read and thought about. I can guarantee that.

We're reaching out for the remnant, but not the lazy ones.

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

PS: The issue that the WT has with the trinity is NOT the trinity but the divinity of Christ,...

I agree for the most part, but you can't really separate them. The primary and core issue is the divinity of Christ, that He was and is God, but that is what econimic trinity is all about, the divinity having been extended to the HS after Nicaea I. But I totally agree that the fundamental issue which the JWs avoid like the plague is the issue of whether Jesus was and is God. They simply refuse to go there because they know they lost that battle in the 4th century, or even as far back as the first for that matter.

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

ynot: The issue is with co-equal and co-eternal rather than divine nature

You're also wrong here like I mentioned in the other post. Produce some literature that quotes this, please. These issues aren't at opposite ends. In the trinitarian sense a divine nature means, among other things, co-equality and co-eternality. And with respect to co-equality, you must ask "equal in what sense?" You keep criticizing people for not having been a JW like it was some kind of badge of honor to have been one. It should be a badge of shame. At least the ones who never joined weren't gullible enough to fall for that load in the first place. You might say, they are the smarter ones in the long run. I don't see how that kind of scriptural ignorance makes one smarter or more knowledgeable when it comes to reading their literature. Distance lends itself to objectivity.

148

Christians explain? Jews never believed in a Trinity even today so how/when did it start?

by Witness 007 in

jews for thousands of years have believed in their "one god" so i always wondered if in jesus time this was the view, how and when did the trinity start?

did jesus start it off?

are you saying jews were trinitarian?

jonathan dough

ynot; Yes the JWs when firmly pressed admit Jesus' divinity.

That is utter and complete nonsense. The JWs teach Jesus was nothing more or less than a man with special powers. And I don't care how pressed a few of them are, most don't even know what the Society teaches. They simply have a different definition of divinity which is no definition at all in the trinitarian/christian context. Why don't you produce a quote where the Society admits Jesus' divinity as Christians and trinitarians view divinity.